Good morning everyone and welcome to this session on Unlocking Potential. We will focus on leadership strategies for project and portfolio success in this session. My name is Michael Ehlers and I'm partner in Implement Consulting Group and I'm so happy to welcome you all to this collaborative webinar with Antonio and Jettro Rodriguez and from Half Double Institute, Christina Sejr Pedersen. Let me just use one minute to frame what we will talk about today. Current leadership strategies often fall short in delivering the impact and speed that we need for our transformations. and transformations today are characterized as successful. This leaves a huge potential for improvement, which this webinar is all about. But let me take you back to the start of all this, because in the 1950s project management was established in the weapon industry and in the defense, no, that was the defense industry and in the space industry with a waterfall approach at its core. Great engineers tried to foresee the the unforeseeable with a lot of management techniques. Then in 2001, the Agile Manifesto was created in a ski cabin in Utah and that approach had actually multiple iterations at its core. And then for decades, Agile and Traditional has been debating which approach will create the most success in projects. But while they were debating, a new approach has emerged and that approach has leadership at its core. It's called hybrid project management. It's called hybrid project management. And we'll talk about that overall leadership strategy in this session. So the agenda for today is that I'm welcoming you now and just framing this whole session. And in one minute, you will meet our thought leader and author Antonio and Jettro Rodriguez. He will introduce us to this new leadership strategy, how it has emerged and what's the kind of the main idea about this hybrid approach. Then we have Christina Sire-Pidderson from Half Double Institute, and she will show you a proven hybrid methodology that actually has leadership at its core in order to increase project success. Then we will have your questions answered, as many of them as possible. So please feel free to add your questions in the chat during this session. We will bring up our time for the time. We will be able to enter your questions. We will try to answer as many of your questions as possible. Then we will end the session off with just a few tips and tricks for how you can build your own and your organization's capabilities within this area. So without much further ado, I would like to introduce you to Antonio and Jettro Rodriguez. Antonio is a global authority in project leadership. He is the winner of the Thinker 50 Award. And he has also been the former global chair of the Project Management Institute, which many of you know is the biggest project management standard in the world. He's author of two books and also multiple articles, but that's another case. But he's author of the Project Management Handbook and the Powered by Projects from the Howard Business Review Press. And also he's working as an executive advisor, knowing what goes on in the boardroom related to bigger transformations and projects and portfolios. So, Antonio, all the way from Spain, how are you doing this morning? Hi, Michael. I'm good. Thank you. Nice to see you. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for being here with us. And I'll leave it all to you now, Antonio. Thank you, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here with all of you, with Implement, Half the Vault, Christina. So I'll share briefly about a topic that I'm very passionate and I think it's a big game changer for the profession of project and transformation and what we're going to be talking today. Before going a bit into details, I want to share something that I believe it's a big disruption that we're not talking enough, but it's something that it's happening as we speak, which is the way businesses carry out, the way organizations are set up. And this impacts at its core the leadership part. So most organizations have two dimensions, which I guess most of you know is running the business, which is the blue part in my slide and changing the business. People call it run and change or business as usual and projects. So as you can see, there's the trend. This is just imagine this is just one business. It could be a telecom. It could be a bank. It could be a pharma company. And the chart shows that the amount of people dedicated to one side of the business and the other. The amount of management dedicated to one part of the middle management, senior leaders time and so on. And as you can see, this is a chart that was made based on historical data. So you can see a big trend, which is we need less people to do operational activities. We need less people running the business, right? You can see that. At the same time, there's more need for projects. And what you feel in most organizations is that there's more and more people working in projects. They might have a role in the blue part, but they have more and more investment and time into the red one. Just last week, I got a mail from a pharma company telling me, we realize everybody in this pharma company are working in projects. Can we build like a framework and train everyone, not just the project managers? So this is a trend that I think we all feel the tension. If you're in a corporate like that, you feel the tension. But then you go to take this to the next level. And this is what I'm working now is when you introduce AI and robots cheaply. Imagine you can hire 1000 robots that will do the work of many people in a company. Then you see that acceleration where in a matter of months, there will be very few people working in operations. And most people, not just project managers, we dedicate their time to projects. And that's where the leadership part comes because we need to organize ourselves different. The whole concept that I'm working on is this project driven organization, project driven operations, project driven leadership and governance. And so this is a different ballgame. This is very, very different than what we've seen in the last hundred years. And that's where project managers. And that's where project managers can step up. We, in this world, we are not going to be just project managers. We need to be leaders. We need to be seen as entrepreneurs. We need to be coaching our colleagues who are not used to working in uncertainty all the time. So this is for me the exciting time that we are and we need to step up as professionals in our leadership capabilities. Leaders have to also embrace this model. It's easier to manage your business as usual. It's easier to manage your business as usual than transformation work. So leaders are needing to be coaching as well and change the way they spend their time at work much more on transformation. So that's the bigger picture. That's where we're heading to one point. The other day, a CEO of a company, Telecom, told me, Antonio, your chart is wrong. I said, why? The blue line should go until the zero percent. I don't want anybody working in operations. It should be all machines and robots. Wow. So what do we do? All the rest of the people. So that is, I think, setting the scene of a major disruption where project management needs to step up really fast because we might have someone else who takes that role, right? Product managers could be one of them. But then a bit going deeper into the discussion of methods and leadership approaches. And I am also very passionate on this topic because I was making mistakes in the past too. But I always say this, what happens when you gather in the same room, traditional project managers, waterfall and agile practitioners? Well, basically, there's a fight, right? We don't like each other. It's exaggerating a bit, but it's true. In most companies that I visit, the agile teams are not in the same floor as the traditional project managers or they're in a different floor just because there has been this tension between agile and waterfall. I wrote an article in HBR about this, these 20 years that Michael was saying when agile was born, 2021, yeah, 2001. And there was a big reaction against the traditional waterfall people and approaches and leadership. And so that was not good. I think you realize today that most projects need a mix of tools, right? So this is very important. That's why I launched a research last year after the summer to understand what's going on, what happens with hybrid project management. And you'll get a copy of this. It's all for free. But basically what this was telling us to me was a bit of a confirmation, but also a surprise. So there were more than 1,000 respondents. But more than 80% of people were saying, we're using hybrid methods already. And I said, wow, that's interesting. Okay. We don't talk too much about hybrid. It's not a popular topic. It's not been in the agenda of PMI, APM. It's hardly known except what we're going to hear from Christina on half double, but actually people think that they're using hybrid methods. So that was kind of a great news, right? People understand that we need to mix. We cannot just any digital transformation project, everything agile, or we cannot do our digital transformation, just waterfall and program management. You need a mix. You need different leadership styles to work at them. And per phase, they will depend. So our role changes dramatically, right? And that's what I think we're going to be looking into the next months on how to bring this into reality. The other, you'll see there's a lot of questions, but one question for me was really important is, since when do you use hybrid? Okay, so many people are using it. And I thought it was something recent, but you can see that this is not recent at all. So people have been using already agile methods for a while. And there's a big peak in 2015. I don't know really what happened there, but you can see that this started even before agile was created. So people understood that this is all about mixing the tools and the approaches and making it work for your specific work stream or the need that you have. So I think that is very interesting. But then we take this to the next level. Okay, so most of us are using hybrid methods. It's not new. We use it for a while. And then I asked, but what is hybrid, right? So, and then you can see already, of course, there's a mix of the waterfall and the agile. Obviously, these are the two main ones, but people put in the mix change management, lean, product management, and so on, discipline agile. So I think this is good. This is the way it should be. But what's the mix? How do you know when to use one and the other? There is very, very little guidance on that. Again, back to Christine and half double and implement is where I think the missing piece, right? This is what makes the difference is how can we not really standardize hybrid is hard, but at least have the principles clear, the tools clear, the leadership styles that you need. I think that's to the point we can take this. And I look forward to the next presentation. But this is really, I think, the point of the research. Yes, we need hybrid. We need to use it. And now we need to explain what hybrid is so that it's not just organized chaos or chaos, but there is a strategic vision. There's leadership behind and there's the right tools at the right time, right? That's what we want. And just for having fun, I put here a bit of a checklist. And just for a scoring matrix to know when you need to use more waterfall or more agile. This is just a prototype. This is just evolving. But you can score a work stream. You can score a project and say for that project, we need to mix. Most projects will come up with a mix. When you get the slides, you can see that. But that's what I wanted to share. Michael and Christina saw great timings, big, big disruption. Coming in on the making on the bigger picture. And then hybrid just connecting the dots on making sure we apply the right tools, leadership to the right projects and timings. Thank you, Antonio. And just one question now that I have you here on the screen. What surprised you the most from the survey? The most, Michael, is that it's been used for a while. I thought it was something recent. Again, I've been with PMI. I'm now vice president of APM. And hybrid is always in the mind of the people. But there's not really a guide. No, it's what you've done. We'll have to. It's really ahead of time. So that was the most surprising that people are using it for 10 years already. Without really knowing what is really hybrid concretely. So that's the nice part. There's a lot of room to improve. But the awareness is there. That makes perfect sense. And that's really interesting as well that practitioners have actually invented their own best practice along the way in order to cope with the ever-changing environment that a transformation or project would be part of, right? Exactly. Exactly. That's the best way to defend. They've invented their own methods. Ah, okay. So I think that's a perfect bridge. So please stay with us, Antonio, because we will have more questions to you after this next presentation. So I'll just run through to our next keynote speaker. So hold tight in Spain, Antonio. So the next speaker is Christina Sia-Peterson. She's the executive director of Half Double Institute. Christina has 25 years of experience in the world of projects. She's the founding mother of the Half Double methodology. And she actually holds two international awards for project management office and project management work. She's currently working in two jobs. One job being the VP of project management in Triple Ring Technologies, which is a company in California. And she's also the executive director of Half Double Institute. So it's quite a capacity that we can welcome this morning. And Christina, you are here with us in the studio. Yes. Thank you. How are you doing this morning? I'm great. Thank you. That's super. So the scene is yours. Thank you. And good luck. Yes. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me, Michael. And thank you for joining us, Antonio. I really enjoyed your presentation. And I think I remember seeing you at a conference. I'm afraid to say for the both of us how long time ago that was. But already there, you were also ahead of your time talking about how the project economy was going to be the economy of the future. And I guess time has proven you right, that that was exactly what you see now. And I think what you're describing is, I remember the book called The Tipping Point. I think we are right there at the tipping point of people having to take less focus on the day-to-day operations and much more focus on the day-to-day operations. transformation. And that goes from the highest level from the boardroom to the C-suite to the project managers and also the other managers. So that was really interesting. Thank you for that, Antonio. So what is a hybrid project management approach? I think we heard a little bit from Antonio that people have sort of invented their own. And I think that's great. That's what you do as project managers. You find the tools that will give you the most success. But I think Antonio has also described why we need this approach. When we look at the world today, we have a stakeholder environment that is increasingly complex. We have an environmental agenda. We have geopolitical developments right now that makes the world extremely volatile, very hard to predict. There's a general pace of business and developments that have been increasing. That has happened probably over the last 100 years over the last 100 years. So it's not really new. But it seems like the pace is accelerating a little bit. And then I say, I think maybe unfortunately, that crisis is the new normal. If you're out there as a project manager or a business leader, and you think, well, just six months from now, everything will settle down, and we will go back to business as usual. I think you're kidding yourself. You're fooling yourself. We will go from crisis to crisis and therefore transforming your business, being in a constant transformation is actually going to be in a constant. And then you think about it. And then you think about it in the half-double institute is what we've done is we've taken and curated the best and most effective tool for what I would call the traditional project management. And then also what agile got right. And then we put it together. And then we added a giant splash of leadership. Because there's something that has not changed. And that I think is a universal truth about projects is that all projects consist of people. All projects are populated by people. And that even goes for the AI arena that we're entering now. Projects will still consist of people. So therefore, how you act as a project manager or a project sponsor, or in another leadership position is vital to the success of your projects. I'm happy to see from Antonio's survey that so many people are already using hybrid today. The half-double institute, with Antonio's permission, conducted the same survey in Denmark. And we got exactly the same results as Antonio did. Over 80% of the project managers that answered were using hybrid. And they had done so for a while. But again, it was something that they had made themselves, which I think is effective. But what we have done at the half-double institute, we spent 10 years curating, searching, investigating, doing science on what part of traditional and agile works the best. And how can you put it together to make a coherent guidance in how to run projects. And this is exactly what we're set out for. So the half-double institute is actually a nonprofit institute whose sole purpose is to increase the success rate of projects. That's why we're here. We have and own the half-double model, which we actually think yields superior results. But our original purpose is to increase the 36 % that Michael mentioned a little bit earlier. I know there's a lot of people from the project management community on this webinar today. And I think as a profession, we have to do better. Imagine all the waste in the world that comes from unsuccessful projects. I think we as a profession. I think Michael mentioned that we have maybe 50, 60 years in this profession. We need to do better. So this is the half-double methodology. We can actually have it all in a wheel. One of the things that I wanted when I founded the method together, actually with Michael as well, he's also the founder of this method, is I wanted something simple. At that time, I thought that some of the project models around were getting increasingly complex. I think we have a workforce today that should not need to be told what they need to do every second of the day. So our approach is what I call a principle-based approach. It means it'll give you some guidance. It'll give you some principle, but it's not a checklist. First of all, I don't think as an employee you need a checklist. Second of all, the world is too complex. There's no way I, as a model owner, will be able to foresee every situation that your project comes in. We also have a huge part of half-double is the adaptable idea. So the outer layer of that circle that you see on your screen right now means that not all companies are alike. Not all projects are alike. So we take our model and then we adapt it to the organization that we put half-double in place in because not all organizations are alike. And I think we should by now know that there's not a one fix that will fix everything. And then, as I mentioned, it's a hybrid model. So what are the main components of half-double? I know, unfortunately, I can talk about this for days, of course, but I don't have the time to go through all of the models today. But I'll just give you a little appetizer of what our thinking is. And also what our research shows. So our contention is that if you want focus in your projects, if you want success in your project, you should focus on three core elements. First one we call impact. I think one of the mistakes that project managers can make, I've certainly made it in my project management career, is that you get too caught on the deliverables. You fix the deliverables and then you forget sometimes that impact is why you're there. The projects are a mean to an end. Just like your transformation project is a mean to transform your business into something better. So focusing on impact, you still need to have deliverables. I think the traditional project management got that right. But you should at any time focus on impact. Then the second element is called flow. That is, of course, hugely inspired by the whole agile movement. The fact that you want to create speed in your project is a way to do that is, first of all, to be highly allocated into the projects. We have a guiding star in half-double said you should be on no more than two projects at a time. I think some of us like to say that we can multitask. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true. That just means we do several things badly at the same time. I think as humans, we are better when we focus. We also really advocate co-location. I know that can be a challenge in the virtual world and in international organizations, but a lot can be done virtually as well on that. So working at the same time on the same project. I know this sounds really simple, but it actually really works. And then the last thing is leadership. Now, I think I forgot to mention in the beginning, if some of you were wondering about this name, why are we called the Half-Double Institute? It's actually because the moonshot that we set out to do, the three founders of Half-Double, is we wanted to create a project model that would give you a project with double the impact and half the time. So our elements here are focused on those two, increasing speed and also increasing impact. And as I said in the beginning, leadership is at the core. So we've taken tools from the prescriptive or traditional project management from Agile, and then we added leadership because results are created by people. Results are not created by process. The process can help, but all projects are populated by people. And that requires a huge leadership investment. And that doesn't just go for the project manager. It goes for the C-level. It goes especially for the project sponsor. So let me dive a little bit more into leadership here. The leadership dimension is one of the things that we emphasize. I actually wrote a little bit provocative manifest early in the project Half-Double, where I said you should fire your steering committee. I think that might be a little bit radical, but the thought is that we need to fire your steering committee. We need an active, very brave and. We need to fire your recruitment center. We need to Fvdste and PeaceR shut up. Now, we need an active, engaged project owner that doesn't just sit in his or her corner office and then the project manager comes to them for an audience. We want the project owner in the project at least two to three hours a week really invested in becoming a true partner of the project manager. Then you focus on the people. You lead the process, but you first lead the people. So you focus on impact. that your team can interact. Not all decisions need to go through you in big projects. The project manager can become a bottleneck. So how do you empower your project participants to make decisions on their own? And then, first of all, you put people first. And then we have this little saying here, we say, say yes to the miss. What do we mean by that? Going back to what I said about crisis is the new normal. I think one of the mistakes that some project models have made is they have increased their complexity in order to try to make tools that could shut out uncertainty and changes. So you could sort of put up on your blinders and then just go for the project deliverables. I don't think that can be done in today's environment. You need to actually invite uncertainty in because who knows, there might be an opportunity right there. So you have to be a very adaptable leader who will have the impact in your mind at all times, but be able to agile, change the deliverables a little bit if it is required. And the question you're all maybe thinking, does this really work? Yes, it actually works. Very early on in the half-double journey, we partnered with a professor from Oslo University named Pierre Svaybe. And he has followed us for all of these 10 years, looking at projects run using the half-double model and then comparing it to projects that were run by maybe you didn't have a model. So you had another model or you had another model that you used. And I think the numbers speak for themselves. 93% of the half-double projects that were looked at in this survey or this investigation were either highly successful or medium successful. And I want to say maybe the number, it sounds really high and I think it is. You know, there's always this tendency to, if you watch somebody, they try really hard, right? But even if it's 73%, you know, 73%, you know, I'll take it any day over the 36% successful that Michael mentioned a little bit earlier. So we really encourage you to have a look at this because we as a project management community, we are responsible for the transformations that Antonio talked about. And we cannot live with the fact that only about 30% to 36% of those transformations are successful. We cannot live with the fact that we cannot live with the fact that we cannot live with the fact that we cannot live with that for the sake of ourselves and our company and for the world. So that was it for me. Now it's time to answer a few questions. Welcome back, everyone. And we're now in a setting here where we have a few questions that we like to address. So the first question actually goes out to you, Antonio, because a thing that we've been wondering and been discussing in the hybrid communities is why do you think that the executive suite seems to overlook project management and especially the hybrid project management discipline? as a strategic level as a strategic level as a strategic level and also as a very important thing for their organization to succeed with. So what would be your perspective on that? Thank you, man. And thank you for the great question. There's been a lot of research on this topic. And I think there's several factors, but the main one is it's easier to focus on operations. It's tangible. You can measure. You have hierarchy. You have hierarchy. So you're the boss and you can. And projects are always difficult. There's challenges. It's never go according to plan. It's people business like Christina was talking about. So there's always a bit more difficult. You need to negotiate. And so I think that it's by nature. Leaders tend to focus more on the easier and more tangible aspects of the business. And that's why they regard project management as something that is not for them. This is something for the engineers, for the IT. There's also our fault as project managers that we've not learned to talk about the language of the business. And we talk about time and deliverables and budget. But what really matters is the impact that Cristiano was talking or the benefits. And that's where you connect that. So understanding how your project connects. One exercise I always say in my workshops. Talk about what you do without mentioning the word project or project management. And that forced you to talk more about why we do the project, right? The purpose is something that we had not thought about too much. And the purpose connects your project with the bigger picture of it. So there's two sides. Yeah, the leaders to BC and seeing this as something very bureaucratic as a profession, being very very driven in technicality terms and things that don't relate to the higher people and the other stakeholders. So the good news, Michael, is that we know that and we can fix both. Yeah, that's the good news, I guess. Actually, we have a question that's related to that. And I would like to pose that to you, Cristina. And this is from Anita. And this is kind of a longer question. But Anita did a mapping with some of her colleagues on project management versus product owner and scrum master. In the end, it turned out that not so much was left to the project manager except all the boring tasks of consolidating, reporting, and so forth. So in the future, she's saying maybe that will be done by AI. So at the current state, the project owner or the product owner does all the prioritization or the value management and such. So the scrum master can also be the agile coach, leading the people and developing the team as kind of an extra assignment. But what do you think about this? What is left for the project manager or the project leader to succeed with? Yeah, that's a good question. And I've seen in organizations that people sometimes treat their project managers more as what I would call project coordinators. And then sometimes they come to me and complain about their project managers. And they say, you have exactly the project managers you deserve. Because if you treat them like coordinators and there's not a lot of leadership left for them, that is what you get. So I don't think I necessarily agree. I think there's a lot left for project managers. But responsibility is not something you're given. It's something you take. Yeah. So I agree very much with what Antonio just said, that we have maybe made the mistake of talking a too technical project management language to the leaders. So if we get in there and we show that we can talk about business impact and environmental impact, that how we want to change, help them change the business, I think we can get a seat at the table. Yeah. So I wouldn't quite, I wouldn't quite feel defeated yet. No, no. That makes perfect sense. I think there's a lot to win. So that's one challenge. But what about AI? So Eric is asking, how has generative AI changed the half-double approach? You know, I did a speech yesterday in Gothenburg, Sweden, and I started out by saying that AI, this is going to sound a little provocative, has changed everything and nothing at the same time. Everything and nothing. Okay. So a few more words to that. What I mean is, yes, I do believe that project management will get a very powerful assistant in generative AI that's going to do some of the more process-based tasks. Yeah. Yeah. They're going to help with scheduling, risk analysis, building time plans, Gantt charts, all of those. And we already see a lot of the vendors out there developing AI-assisted project management tools. Okay. What they cannot replace, in my view, is the people part. And that's what I mean. Yeah. And that's what I mean. Nothing has changed. Yes, it may actually take over what I would call project management. Yeah. But it's not going to take over project leadership. So true. So true. And there was a time before AI and after AI. I think we are going to see that as a major disruption. But all projects were populated by people before AI and after AI. They still are. Yes. So in that way, everything is going to change. Nothing is going to change. That's what I mean. When I say that. Let's explore this, the same question with you, Antonio. I know that you've also been a lot into the AI part and how that will affect project management and also on the tool level. But what do you think on the leadership level when we talk about generative AI? How will that affect the whole discipline? It's a great discussion. Like Cristiano was saying, and when you read this, people are questioning today, what's the return on investment of AI? So obviously, I use AI every day. I think there is all the tasks that we don't like to do in project management, which are a lot, right? Chasing people, making reports, all these things, risk management. And I can't wait that AI does that, right? So and then I think from a leadership perspective, I think AI together with us can bring, I think, more transparency today. I think one funny point I always share in a board or executives is I ask them, how many projects are you running in this company? And you would be amazed that most executives don't know. They don't know how many projects. It's thousands or hundreds. So I think AI can bring that transparent. Just asking the number of projects, I don't go into what's the investment, what are the expected revenues, because then you get everybody blocked, right? Nobody can tell you what are we trying to get from this portfolio project. It's really. So I think if you use AI to bring that transparency, that visibility on where are we investing, how are our projects doing? What's the value that we're expecting to create? Then I think that's where we connect the dots, right? Then you can connect everything. And for me, that's where we need to focus. Obviously, the admin staff, which is 40%, 50%. Yes, please, as soon as possible. And then we can focus on things that matter. Yeah. That's a great view. Thank you for sharing that, Antonio. And now a question to you, Christina. How does HalfDouble handle the conflict between agile development in IT projects where you have end results that are not defined and waterfall reporting like what, when, when, how much? So those two things at the same time, how does HalfDouble handle that? Well, I think I want to, this is really, again, reliving the old conflict that I think Antonio addressed very well in his, in his Harvard Business Review article. It is time to bury the hatchet. Okay. Between the traditional waterfolly way of reporting and agile. And I actually, well, I'm not unbiased, but I think HalfDouble is the answer. It's not the answer to everything. Let me just get that out of the way. But we have taken some parts of waterfall and some parts of agile and put it into a coherent model. And that resolves the conflict. So if you are in an organization and you see there's a more waterfolly demand for reporting and you use agile in your software development, have a look at actually creating a coherent hybrid model that you use for all your projects across the organization. Yes. Then you might get rid of that tension. But I really agree with, with Antonio. It's time to bury the hatchet. It is. Yeah. Sounds good. So, so one more question, actually, because there's a question here from, from Earth, you know, so what type of project would fit for the HalfDouble methodology? So for instance, VDC is used for big construction projects, but would there be an equivalent industry for HalfDouble method that would, that would suit better? It's a good question. It's a good question. And I'm not claiming I have the answer to everything here. We have in our pilot projects, we have used the HalfDouble methodology for a whole range of projects. We've done it for IT projects. We've done it for supply chain projects. We have done it for product development projects, strategic projects like organizational change. I think if you're doing, you know, I think if you're doing, you know, I think if you're doing mega construction projects, I probably drive over that bridge, you know, without, you know, being too worried if there was also some element of work breakdown structure and again chart. But I think possibly for everything else like product development, strategic projects, change projects, certainly transformation projects that Antonio is talking about, the HalfDouble methodology. is a really good fit. Sure. Yes. Okay. That makes sense. And the same question kind of goes to you, Antonio. So hybrid project management, did your survey reveal anything about what project types seems to be the most obvious ones for this approach? I think transformations in general is the ones that you will see as they need to mix. the transformations, the bigger programs, the bigger programs, some projects, if you take them to a departmental level. I think you could do it with agile or just basic project management. But when you go to the increase the complexity, the impact, then that's where you need to use all these methods. That's where the big play happens, right? These are the big bets. So that's where you need to use all these methods. So that's where you need to spend more time understanding when to use what. So I think it's for the bigger programs and transformation initiatives where you, you, I cannot see any transformation or big program that doesn't mix tools, right? And approaches. There's, it's not possible. Even, even infrastructure, projects that use some projects that use some agile concepts. I'm not saying agile methods, but agile concepts, agile mindset, right? Focus on benefits, get the customer involved from the beginning. So these are things that are, I think are needed. Absolutely. In any big project. And that might be the new standard that you need to mix it. And with those words, I would like to conclude and say thank you to you, Antonio, for being with us. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And, and let me just use one minute to address how you can, you can, how you can increase your capability, your own capability, but also your organization's capability within this area. And hopefully there is a slide on the, on the screen now where you will see two QR codes. One, if you're in Denmark, you will see a link to some of the courses going on related to half double. And if you're international or would like the virtual version, then there's a QR code for, for a signing up list for that. And then we'll see if we can create a setup that will, will fit as many of you as possible. Uh, also to cater for, for that wish. Um, you're of course, also very welcome to contact Antonio directly to contact Christina directly or me directly. And we will send you a followup mail that will include all the links to all these great resources, links to this session, links to the link to the link to the link to the link to the link to the link to the link to the link. links to the link to the, uh, links to the, uh, profiles, links to how to contact us and all those great things. So thank you so much for being with us this morning and, uh, good luck with the hybrid, uh, execution out there. Hmm. Thank you. Thank you.